"But still one fundamental trait... persists in our aesthetic cravings the beauty we find in skilled performances."

Denis Dutton: A Darwinian theory of beauty.

Mr. Dutton states his answer to this question in his TED talk. His answer has obvious connections to Veneer Question thread and the Commentary of Design Education and "Why it Must Change" thread.

Particularly interesting comments (for this forum) start at the 8:50 mark.

hey JL

that is some interesting talk! thanks.

maybe is not the "skillful trait", but it is about what others think
to be skilfully made, as we are not always aware
of how much actual "skill" is involved in doing something
that we are not familiar with the "ways and technologies".
for instance, polished surfaces are most a result of patience
and persistence than "skill".

-Ronaldo

Ronaldo

Very good point. Perception vs reality is a major contributor to how people assign value to a human activity. I run into to this all the time in my work. It is very difficult for the uninitiated to perceive the effort/skill ratio in most of the things I design or construct. Some times this is good but most time it is bad.

There is something to what he said, and it deserves some mroe thought.



Are patience and persistance skills?

Since you can attempt to teach or learn patience and persistence it seems one could argue that they are skills. However, since someone can have patience and persistence without being taught them makes me tend to think of them as basic human attributes and not the skills that Mr. Dutton is talking about. In fact I think patience and persistence are the type of desirable human traits that the demonstration of expertise skills reveals.

I would say "skill" involves some kind of motor coordination capacity,
so I tend to agree that they are desirable traits, maybe even the
traits that are needed to expertise skill.

I think both patience and persistance are learned behaviors associated with the concept of deferred gratification. When one learns the benefits of being persistent and patient, one often reaps rewards. Of course, what one considers an appropriate reward is a function of one's standards. Having standards, such as "good enough", "good", "better" or "excellent" relate to how patient or persistent one needs to behave.

If you need a real reminder of a reward for patience and persistence, go through ALL the videos of Tommy's Bombe build. The "standard" to which Tommy held his work should be obvious. Taking 14 months to build the beast accounts to his persistence and desire to make every piece of the project perfect. Having the faith that he could do it, and the mental strength to finish it, attests to his patience. In the end his reward was accomplishing a feat few will ever attempt and fewer will ever match. Yes, there was a lot of skill needed to get it done to the degree of precision exhibited. But as Tommy has often told me "It takes time behind the tools to do it right." I think this goes back to the patience and persistence concepts.

Bruce

I agree patience and persistence (p&p) can be learned behaviors, so while the above is reasonably stated, it is rather narrowly argued. The traits of p&p while often coupled with the deferred gratification (particularly when trying to teach p&p) there is no such guarantee that p&p will ‘pay off’ in some way. Moving beyond the world of skill-based activities, an example of this decoupling that immediately come to mind is parenting. P&p when raising children has no such guarantee of a ‘pay off’ (I won’t explain how I know this ). There may be a hope that p&p is the front side of a deferred gratification equation but it is certainly not a given.

Being (as best I can) an absurdist provides me with a world view that ‘allows’ me to practice (practice? Oh no maybe it is a skill ) a lot of p&p without any notion that there will eventually be a ‘pay off’. In fact it is just the opposite, realizing the absurdity of life frees one from any such expectation.

JL,

I agree with your premise that behaving with P&P has no guarantee of a reward and that "deferred gratification" is only one plausible driver. Things like "fear of failure', "preventing punishment" or otherwise avoiding percieved negative consequences also lead people to be persistent.

By the way, thank you for your contribution to this dialogue.

Bruce