One interesting alternative would be to do a diamond match in the veneer, cutting four pieces on a diagonal and then matching the grain in a sort of diamond effect with a horizontal and a vertical joint across the centres of the panel. Fussy, but a nice effect.

Paul
the little guy

Hmm that sounds pretty cool. I'll run it by the customer. Actually the design has changed a bit so far. The bottom panel will be raised. Customer decision.

I might be able to help a little bit here. I spent many years in Japan. The kind of doors you are talking about are called Shoji. Traditionally they were softwood frames covered with rice paper panels that were intended to be replaced annually. It was thought to bring out the bad luck and bring in a fresh new year.

In modern times almost no one replaces them that often so there are kind of translucent fiberglass replacements for the rice paper that are a lot tougher. There is a guy named Toshio Odate that has a good english language book on making Shoji. I'll see if I can find it at home tonight.

I was thinking that in the traditional style, the doors won't take too much abuse from the kids because the rails and stiles are so thin that they will break under heavy abuse. The answer might be to gain some stability from the panel itself. I think you might be able to use something like a frosted Lexan panel to replace the rice paper and pick up near indestructablility and you could tie the rails and stiles into the Lexan panel to add strength there as well.

To make the heavier door slide well, you could try rolling hardware for sliding doors or maybe something like teflon or HDPE glides to help it move.

Steve

Yeah what you are describing is pretty much what they had. But they want to replace it with something stronger and a little different. The customer actually sent me some other ideas he had. We were talking about using something like frosted glass as well. Do you have source for the frosted lexan.

I believe Lexan is soft enough that you can sand it to produce an a translucent effect. Obviously you would have to test and practice the technique (when i have done this I used an ROS). It would also allow for a "custom" effect. There are many sources online that sale translucent Lexan like U.S. Plastic Corp but you might be able to find what you want at your local Home Depot or Lowes.

I would think you would want at least 1/4" or thicker lexan. You'll be hard pressed to find that at lowes. Find a local glass company. They be kind enough to frost the lexan for you. The will also have different patterns and colors of lexan/plexiglas. hope this helps.

this is a very good thread. enjoying each entry.

You could buy a small piece of Lexan at Lowes or Home Depot and try taking a sander to it. I would be leary of using glass with little kids abusing it unless a glass shop recommends the right kind of stuff for the job. It probably needs to be safety glass and I do not think that can be frosted because safety glass has a special coating on it.

Steve

while I have everyone's attention I wanted to ask something about a totally unrelated project. This is another commission that I just received and it's to build a bed. But its a weird Ebay bed. Ikea 5 years and done stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

that's the link to the picture. I couldn't figure out how to post it here. the only thing I could think of is like a slat construction thing. Like this



It is just the drawer dividers as well as the ends are are solid. Then I glue and screw other boards in between to give me something to dovetail into. Then I dovetail slats into the boards. Kind of like frame and panel things except by attaching them to the vertical boards I can index them better and keep the bed square. I'm not sure if this idea makes any sense or if it will even work. As in hold the weight. I've sat on my serpentine desk before just for the heck of it and it didn't break. So it seams I've got enough mass and joinery with probably 100 dovetail joints in total. I don't know though. What do you guys think. before I go cutting up the 250 board feet of poplar I have sitting in my shop.

I am not sure I understand your description but I did take a look at the linked picture. I would approach the building of the bed as if it were base kitchen cabinets. So the section that you drew would be much much simpler. Also, from the picture this is a mattress only configuration no box springs, which isn't very comfortable in my opinion.

so you're saying build 3 "cabinets" almost and screw them together more or less?

D..............you are moving into a different stype of cabinetmaking. I see you mention dovetails and poplar.......this job is flat panel construction.

Think of it like JL is suggesting (kitchen base cabinets) 3 sections, on a base(toe-kick) either screw together or use a through connectors, full extension slides, 1/2" birch ply drawers, 1/4" ply bottoms, platform for mattress, headboard and footboard are seperate and attached on site.

This is a build and install..........you'll need to invision building, breaking down, delivery, and installation. Use locators such as square 1/2 birch scrap or wafers to ease your installation.

Watch your margins on this job very closely.

Yes (but there is more than one way to skin a cat). I agree with Neil and would only suggest that I would use 3/4" (for strength and rigidity), because unlike a kitchen cabinet the potential abuse of the bed is much greater (jumping up and down, wild intimate activities, etc.). The bed needs to be very sturdy, particularly in resisting racking perpendicular to the foot and head boards, yet it also needs to be able to be broken down so you can get it there and the owner can move it if the need to. Depending on how you design the structure the cabinets could even be 'free floating' under the 'bridge' that is the bed.

that's a good idea. I see what Neil is saying about just a get it done job. I will probably end up using poplar for the drawer sides. I can't stand plywood sides. Unless the customer wants me to paint the sides. Also he's talking about doing just 4 full sized drawers. One one wide of the bed. So 4 drawers taking up the whole inside of the bed. In that case we're talking 500 dollar drawer slide. So I was thinking how about the non friction plastic runners and non friction tape on the drawer because 500 for a drawer slide is most likely not gonna fly. unless I can get 48" full extension slides for less.

I am not sure that is what Neil is saying. What he said was "...you are moving into a different style of cabinetmaking". While it is possible to build the project out of solid wood I would question the benefits of doing so. To me (remember I am an architect who also builds stuff trying to make a living), I have no such bias to modern day materials (no hate mail please ).

I am a little confused by your description, so let me state what materials I would use and where I would use them.

3/4" plywood for all carcass construction (edged with solid wood, perhaps with detailing), depending on the construction the backs of the carcass could 3/4", 1/2" or 1/4" plywood.

1/2" solid wood drawer sides, 1/2" plywood bottoms for strength and stability. The thickness of the face of the drawer would depend on the design (ie whether dovetails are going to be used, etc).

The material for the construction of the bed would have to be based on the design. It's possible (but costly) to make it out of solid lumber but it probably would end up as some combination of plywood and solid. This will create a potential finishing problem, unless the project is to be painted.
This sounds a bit nutty to me due to the size. Drawers that big will be unwieldy to use and I would advise you to talk to the client about making sure the drawers aren't so big that they are difficult to use.

Nonfriction tape and such can work (but it can also fail). You can also use traditional wood guides with wax, with the proper tolerances for wood movement waxed guides works very well and wax never comes unstuck and gums up the drawer movement.

Another thing to remember is to measure every opening (doorway, van door, whatever) that the pieces will have to fit through to get it from your shop into the bedroom so you know what the smallest opening the pieces need to fit through.

Okay, here's my two shiny pennies worth...
First, for ease of transport, I'd make the base as a stand alone unit. Same for the mattress support. On the sides of these pieces that face each other, I'd put hardwood "keys" that would interlock with the cabinet carcasses to hold everything together (other than the head and foot boards).
The drawers I would make as three separate "cabinets" per side, with mechanical fasteners of some sort to connect them together. (screws, lock plates, etc.)
I'd use 3/4 ply for most of the construction for strength, facing it with solid wood where visible. Drawers, 1/2 solid side with 1/2 ply bottoms for stength.
Head and foot boards are solid wood and give some opportunity for ornamentation.
This style of construction would allow the maximum flexibility in moving the piece.
Hope this gives you some usefull ideas...

Paul
the little guy

that's true. I have to bias to any materials. what works more or less. but where I usually build in all solid wood for me ply is a get it done. nothing fancy just do it. more or less. but it is true that it is a different kind of furniture making. I was thinking that as well. It's not traditional in any way and ply would make it so much easier.



I've talked to him once but I will see him again before the week is over so I will have to iron it out. Hopefully he decided to go for smaller drawers. 6 30" drawers but once I get up to that size drawer slides are just crazy expensive. I know that the big ones will be hard to use. but I think he currently has a bed with a few boxes under it that slide out so he's thinking of that. As opposed to real drawers in drawer openings.



hmmmm hardwood keys. that's an interesting thought. I'll probably just end up sticking to metal connectors or screws so he can get it apart if he needs to though.

Below is a picture of part of my kitchen (which is now 5 years old). It is my design and construction. I used a combination of plywood and solid wood. The solid wood detailing is similar to the detail that I designed for the stair balusters I made (which can bee seen here). I used as much care when I made the cabinets as I do when I am building a free standing piece of furniture (or anything I am building for that matter). A 'Get it done' attitude implies that one isn't all that concerned with the 'finer points' of the work. This type of attitude can wreak havoc on your reputation.

I see what you mean. so I should be able to talk to the customer either today or tomorrow and then I can see where I'm at.

D..............down the road, this may be the best advice you've ever read:

JL said:


Neil

that's very true. I meant it in more of an i'm overthinking this and need to get back to the basics sort of way. but that is as Neil said probably some of the best advice you can give. you've got to treat everything with care if you ever really want to go anywhere.

Also as far as drawer slides what would you guys said would be a good weight rating for drawers of this size. most likely I will end up doing 6 as 4 will be massive. I only plan on doing 36" drawers at max as well.

Also I was looking into drawer slide and came across Knape & Vogt which look like decent drawer slides but they sure do look weird. I've never heard of them either.
[url]
http://www.drawerslides.com/c/175-lb-drawer-slides[/url]

just profiting to illustrate (extracts from Pierre Ramond's "Marquetry")
some of the "classical" veneer matches


you need 4 consecutive sheets for this

Rondo.........great seeing you back in action.......and may I ask how Mr Ruhlmann is doing?? Nobody said anything, but with the curly ashe on my lamp background, I was trying to get a combination of a Diamond and a reverse diamond, the curl for one, the straight grain for the other. Subtle.


D..............you are over killing the size selection that you link too.

Having won that slab of lumber at the Wood Expo.....we now need to puff up your indutry lingo. Those K-V's you show are excellent slides, also Accuride are nice, both have a price. I tried a knock off full extension that was ever good, except you could only buy a case and the shipping cost from CA nullified the slide for me.

With time working with your supplier, ya'll eventually just say "6 pair of 18" K-Vs", because you know what they carry.

I'll get the numbers for you.

Also on my Blog there is a completed build of a lingerie cabinet using full extension drawer slides, that should show you how to incorporate them. Here's the link:

http://furnitology.blogspot.com/2007/02 ... binet.html
About 8 episodes go through the entire build.

Neil

I understand that 'get it done' might be short hand for you but you should realize that these things can be misinterpreted. I really know very little about you (I have watched few of your videos) but you seem to take your woodworking seriously and your attitude is worthy of respect. A reputation is hard won and easily damaged (or lost). Let me paint a picture to hopefully bring home what I mean.

Let's say because of Tommy's show there is a lot of growth in the 207. Instead of 1000+ members there are 1000s of members and lurkers. All these folks will have an opportunity to read everything that has been written here, including your comments. To these people the odds of your comments (along with your work) being the only representation of who you are and what your values are are pretty high. Now this exchange between us will have the effect of explaining your comments which will mitigate someone's misinterpretation, but make no mistake words have consequences (not just in woodworking) and you aren't always going to be around to 'explain' what you really meant when someone interprets your words differently than you intended.

ok enough of that...

Sizing drawer slides is more art than science since it is impossible to know how the drawer will be used throughout it's life cycle. Typically, I tried to understand exactly what is going in to a drawer so at least the slides are sized for their initial intended use. So the thing to do is determine what is the approximate weight of the the items that client is going to store in the drawers. 175Lbs slides are serious capacity (typically lateral file or other commercial/industrial uses), so I would question if they aren't being over designed and unduly adding to the project's costs. If you really need all that capacity I would use a 3/4” ply for the drawer bottom to avoid deflection. I almost always use Accuride but there are several acceptable makers.

Yeah I see what you guys mean. For me I haven't had much experience with drawer slides so I'm just nervous about getting ones that aren't good for my application. If I do end up doing 6 drawers then it would be 6 drawers about 12 inches high 20 wide and 30 deep. I just don't want slides that won't hold that with the clothes

25 inches wide actually. And if I do 4 drawers then we're looking at about 37 inches wide