YO!!... i herd a guy not too long ago say "if you dont do your own finish your not a real woodworker" ...WOW!! what a bold statement...i dont believe that at all... in fact i am pretty sure i am insulted by that notion ....it takes years to develop the skills and talents to become a world class finisher ...thats why there is a whole vocation devoted to teaching it...i know we all get wrapped up in the nostalgia of our craft..but trust me ...even back in the 1700s guys were "specialists"in what they did....carvers,turners joiners,inlay guys, guys who just carved cherubs...the list goes on an on...i think you could spend a life time on only one area of furniture making ..and still only get pretty good....Michael Angelo lived to be around 80 and at the twilight of this life he said he felt as though he had only scratched the surface of his work.... as far as my work goes ..do you think it would be wise of me after spending more than 50 grand and 2500 hours building my "Mt Everest".... that i would be ignorant enough to think i could do the "job" justice ...i dont think so ...i have been working about 10 years now... struggling to truly understand how to build it ...
dont make me

As woodworkers we are constantly working to improve our current skills and learn new ones. I think for a lot of woodworkers and especially as it applies to me, finishing is the one area that I haven't kept pace with relative to my other woodworking skills. All of your work is make or break time when it comes down to the final step -- and yet we still plod ahead and grab that can of polyurethane and do it anyway. So kudos to T. for recognizing an area where the better part of valor is admitting that others have a lot more expertise and availing of that skill and knowledge. It only makes the project better (bettah) especially after committing a gazillion hours in production.

I am trying to learn some new and better finishing techniques and methods to bring a piece of work to that next level. I have picked up several books on finishing authored by the usual suspects - Flexner, Dresner etc., but still I don't feel I have the same level of confidence as I do hand cutting a dovetail. So I would suggest that as we complete these vidprojects perhaps we include some finishing details especially if you do something that is out of the ordinary and reveals spectacular results.

So if you are so inclined guys - share your secrets.

I heard a comment like that from a guy who posts videos on the net. Just so happens, he spent the first 15 years of his life in the trade as a refinisher...

I want to learn all aspects of woodworking including finishing, but it was a big weight off my chest when you mentioned that you turn over your completed furniture to a finisher. That gave me hope I could build high end projects in my lifetime.

What there is another type of finish other than ploy????

MR "T-Chisel" you need to learn to finish a piece of furniture that took you 1,500 hours to build. You know what they say (and it is true) a really, and I mean a really nice Bombe could have been made to look like crap by the wrong finisher. You did the right thing Tommy by having a profressional complete the finishing process. Just ignore all those professed craftsman out there. Most of these guys are only legends in their own minds, and they have a need to put down true talent.

I wish I was able to handle stuff off to a finisher. I like building stuff, I loath wiping chemicals all over it and breathing fumes, and watching dust fall on it. yuck.
I fix cars for a living and we send them to the body shop if they need it.

Being one who is primarily a restoration specialist and a "finisher" I can't agree more with T's post. Knowing what goes into a great finish myself I see almost no connection between one's ability to do woodworking and finishing. To me they are seperate entities as they should be but I do think that better woodworking skills should be learned for people who mainly finish or refinish furniture and better finishing skills are needed for those who attempt to finish their own woodworking projects. Nothing pains me more then to see a beautifully handcrafted piece finished in nothing but gloss poly. To me you'd be better off building it out of pine instead of the hard to find and expensive hardwoods if your end product is going to suffer that finish.

Woodworkers focus on the woodworking (duh? ) but somethimes forget that a bad finish will be the first thing people see when looking at their piece. Either take the time to learn how to do it properly or send it out to someone who knows what they're doing. A good finish helps to enhance the natural beauty of not only the wood but the craftmenship as well. A simple example is a basic relief carving. Finished all in one color with a high gloss "plastic" look hides the quality of the work. The shine makes it hard to see the carving's highs and lows and the single color does nothing to enhance the depth. Take the same piece and add some black or dark colors to the deeper area of the carving and watch it jump out at you from across the room.

I'd say a "real woodworker" whatever the heck that is either wants to learn the finishing process and be as good at it as they can be or they have the common sense to send their pieces to one who knows what they are doing much like Tommy did. You do not need to finish your own work to be a real woodworker but at the same time you should not ruin your hard work by applying a poor finish and not caring about it.

This is one of the reasons that I'm happy to see this part of the forum here at this site. It gives people like me a chance to give a bit back to this community from who I constantly learn new woodworking tips and ideas from.

Man, you hit a nerve with that one. I hate those guys who say you can't be a whatever if you don't do whatever. Bottom line is that if you build something out of wood, you are a woodworker. I see absolutely nothing wrong with outsourcing some work that you either don't like or you think someone might be better at. T, as a carpenter, I am pretty sure you didn't paint the building you built or do the plumbing or wiring. If you did there would be a bunch of union tradesmen burning down your house. Who cares what anyone thinks. If I built a jewelry box or a utility cabinet, I would finish it. If I built the Bombe like you did, I would find an expert to handle it. I know for a fact that Sam Maloof has assistants that help him with preliminary shaping and finishing of pieces. He is very public about this and it just makes smart business sense. Someday I am sure you will be able to get some in-house help. Let the guy yapping in magazines and the internet talk themselves to death. Just do your thing cause no one else needs to define or understand as long as you do.

Steve Naslund
Chicago IL

i've heard that before and i know people who say it. most are not conveying that if you don't finish that you are not a real woodworker. they are conveying that if you are going to finish then you need to know how. like said above the bombe wouldn't have looked as good as it does if the finish was bad. you took the right step though in going to a pro. and saying that finishers build differently. if you are going to finish you need to build to finish. and there is the difference. just saying that if you are going to finish you need to know how and you build differently. if you are not that doesn't mean that you are not a woodworker just that you have chosen not to finish and you would probably build a bit differently. not that its wrong just a bit different. sorry if i'm a bit repetitive. just wanted to clear up that. if someone really is saying that you are not a woodworker if you don't finish that is wrong!

I think that woodworkers have a direction they prefer to pursue ,some like to carve, some like fret work, some like marquetry etc. I feel most woodworkers won't make Tommy's steps and take it to a finisher. So you need to know at least a couple of types of finish that work for you. If you want to know a lot about finishing then research it if not do what you like. One of the best finishing DVDs I have is Charles Neils finishing A-Z it covers the subject as well as any one I've read or watched there Videos. Any one that says your not a woodworker if you don't do finishing just needs to look at Tommy's Bomb enough said.

Jim

I've been away from the forum working on other things. Amazing how your time can get sucked up by all the little things. Only "real" thing I've gotten built in the last cople of months is a new router table. But I digress...

This "master of all" attitude is NOT limited to woodworkers. Trust me, I've seen it in photography forums, I've seen it at various engineering jobs (worked as a contract engineer for a lot of years so I got to see how several companies work from the inside). I've worked to become good enough to do my own analog and digital design as well as low level software and board layout but I also know lots of other engineers who can code circles around me and specialize in certain, specific aspects of circuit design. But in so learning, I've also learned to know when I need to ask for real help!

As with any skilled art/craft/technology you just can do it all. At least most people can't. I'm sure there are a few savants out there who can do it all and do it wonderfully well. But that is not to say one shouldn't try to at least understand the various disiplines. I think of this as the "learn to know what you don't know" theory.

I'm learning about woodworking. I'm also trying to learn a little bit about finishing. So to that end I'll be doing my level best to finish my own pieces (I have two waiting for just such work now). It is scarey hovering over that newly sanded and scraped piece with a brush or rag full of something. But at least having enough basic knowledge to understand HOW to make a good finish seems a perfectly reasonable request of anybody that is going to be serious about their woodworking. So to that end I'm picking projects and queuing them up each with a specific construction or milling skill AND a finishing skill. This means cutting plenty of extra test pieces and saving them after getting the fit just right to also practice the finish! But I know this is never the way you could operate if you were trying to make a living at woodworking. It is just too inefficient from a production standpoint and one would never truly master all aspects of their craft. Better in the end to learn to carve a really, really good cherib and have the phone number of a master finisher than to carve cherubs that look like pockmarked pizza delevery teens and finish everything with gloss poly...

I used to be a drywall FINISHER. I did not hang drywall. I don't think I would like that very much. And I doubt that the guys that hang it would like to finish it very much. Also Anyone can slap mud on a wall but to really do it right you need to really know how the light is going to bounce off the wall that you are working on and you have to be persistant to get the right look. What I am trying to say is that some people make beautiful furniture and they are an artist in that field but when it comes to finish they may not like finishing enough to put the time into it, so why not find someone who is willing to put just as much care and passion into their art as you are in yours. This creates something truely wonderful that may have been just another pice of furniture with a half done finish. No one wants that. Now if you happen to be passionate about both building and finishing then you are truely blessed. But did you use screws that someone else made, or handles. Those tools that you are using, who made those. You choose the level of work you want to put into the craft. Don't downgrade others for not choosing the same path that you have chosen because you have probably used someone elses passion to advance your own craft in a different way. Can't we all just get along.

P.S. if a painter does not make the frame that his masterpeice hangs in is he any less of an artist

Just take a look at the word "woodworker". It means one who works with wood. Finisher means "One who finishes". Pretty straight forward really

Personally, I find statements like that pretty ignorant. As others have said, woodworking has various disciplines within it. It's really not that different from other fields. Medicine, for example, is a great example. Is a pediatrician not a real doctor because he doesn't do brain surgery? Is a brain surgeon not a real doctor because he doesn't do orthopedics? Is a general practitioner not a real doctor because he refers his patient to a specialist? No. And what's the difference from a doctor referring a patient to a specialist who knows more on a given field and a woodworker doing the same with a piece of furniture they just created? In my opinion, there isn't any.

Yes, the hobby woodworker should know how to finish a piece since, at least for me, sending it out to a finisher isn't a viable option. However, that doesn't make anyone a real woodworker. And saying it's required only makes the one saying that look like a jacka$$ IMHO;)

This idea of being one's own finisher is pretty ingrained in the woodworking community. The things I build and do through woodworking have most often been turned over to a painter or finisher to complete but those things were built in's and architectural woodworking. I wouldn't expect a finish carpenter to paint the work he installs or builds so I don't have a problem in that area. And logically, I can see that if I bought an antique table and chairs that needed to be refinished, I'd take them to a finisher-not a woodworker. So, it is something worth challenging that if one would go to a refinisher/finisher to work on a completed antique, why would it take away from the woodworker's accomplishment to have a specialist in finishing apply the finish?

If others are similar to me, I learned woodworking by watching New Yankee Workshop and other do it yourself type shows. In those programs, I have found that working with plywood and mastering cabinetry work seems like a right of passage before taking on heirloom furniture. Looking back, I've wasted a lot of time and messed up my back on my way toward furniture building and design and the two things furniture and cabinetry are largely unrelated... just like finishing and woodworking

What was it Sgt Callahan (Dirty Harry) said as he walked out of the wood shop to call the professional finisher? Oh yeah.... "A man has to know his limitations"

haha....i thought he said...you feel lucky punk or did he shoot 5 coats or six??

I do finish most of my own stuff but if I had an option I would send it out. I'm by no means a finisher and have never claimed to be. I'm a woodworker that can spray without (many) runs and drips. When I can send a piece out it comes back looking far better than when I do it.

I have a family member that is in the restoration buisness and HE is a finisher, not me. I do a lot of his woodwork for him and in turn he will do some finishing for me when he has time which isn't oftin. I'm amazed when he pops grain with BLO and hits it with amber shelac and it looks like glass. He has an old rocking chair in his shop and he will do something and pick up a book and just rock and chew his "backer" until its ready. The man never looks at his watch. He will glance over the top of his glasses and say "ah, bout 3 more mins or so". I can't tell what he's looking at but the next coat will be perfect.

On the other hand, I showed him how to hand cut dovetails and he said he wouldn't even try it. Two ends of the spetrum that have nothing to do with each other.

Didn't mean to write an epic but stuff like this just hits a nerve with me.

So if you apply reverse osmosis to that theory, if a finisher can't build the furniture he just finished finishing he really is a finisher?

If an ear nose and throat specialist can perform cardiovascular bypass surgery he's not really a doctor?

If the guy who changes my oil can fix my on board navigation system he's not a qualified mechanic?

Oh boy now I'm all confused.

To me finishing is an artwork. To spend so much time building a piece only to send it out to someone else to interpret the final result is something to be avoided if possible. I get that some of you don't feel comfortable finishing your own pieces but to be honest my main goal of being involved in these forums is to try to urge as many woodworkers to try to finish their pieces on their own as possible.

At the very least we hope to get the idea across that finishing isn't something that should be worried over. With a little basic knowledge it's just another step in the process that should be as fun as all the rest. If you can learn how to hand cut dovetails you can certainly learn how to finish.

There's no mystic about it. I can put a fine "French polish" on most pieces with nothing more then some shellac flakes, alcohol and some rags. If you give me some steel wool or sandpaper it'll be even better.

NOBODY should ever be afraid of finishing their own work. It's quite easy and it's a process that should be enjoyed as much as anything else.

I've been building and restoring period style furniture for the last 30 years or so. I do everything myself from carving, leafing, polishing, veneering,etc mostly because I enjoy it. Some just prefer one thing over the other and there's nothing wrong with that.

My 2 cents worth:

When you started doing wood work, your results were somewhat less than stellar, right? NOW, you do pretty decent stuff, correct?

The difference? Experience.

If you don't practice finishing, your results will show it. If you do practice, that too will show.

To say you don't do your own finishing because you aren't any good at it are a cop out. If you don't enjoy it, maybe that's because you're expecting your experience in wood working to somehow magically transfer to another skill? It just don't work that way, chum! You gotta put in the time to get as good at it as you are in the wood working.

If that doesn't interest you, no sweat. Just admit it, don't make excuses. There's no shame in being more interested in one thing than another.

If you want to get better at finishing, do more finishing! That's all there is to it. You may never master it, but you will get better, and that's what we all strive for, right? Personal improvement.

Paul
the little guy

I disagree. Not doing your own finishing because you aren't any good at it is a VERY GOOD reason for not doing it.

Recognizing someone has better skills and employing them to perform the job is not a cop out. It can be a sound business decision!

Hi Bruce.

You're missing my point. I said to say that's why is a cop out. You can practice on odds and ends while someone better does the finishing on today's project with the aim of someday being good enough to do your own, or you can just tell the world you stink at it and not try. I have no problem with someone saying they aren't interested in learning how to do it. I just think it's a cop out to make excuses for not even trying to learn. Either be honest and say you can't be bothered, or try learning. If, after trying, and really giving it an honest try, you still can't master it, fine. Many people can't. (myself among them so far) I am referring to those who use a present lack of skill as an excuse for not trying to learn it, rather than owning up to a simple lack of interest.

There are many parts of our craft that are hard to master and many of us can't master them because they come up so seldom in our projects that it would be counter productive trying to learn them for a single project or so. How many of us could do a credible ball and claw foot ourselves? I wouldn't even know how to start, but I'd love to learn. I haven't, because there are other areas of study in the craft I'll use more often I want to learn first. Thus, if I need a set of ball and claw feet, I'll get them made by someone else. I don't claim I bought them because I suck at carving, I say I bought them because I can't yet do a credible job on them.

Subtle differnce perhaps, but I knew it would get a reaction.

How's things going with the renewed shop? Getting close to normal I hope.

Paul
the little guy

I was recently at a show and saw some very nice work. The woodworking was very well executed.

However one thing that did stand out was the different quality of the finishes from 3-4 feet away. One piece used a different finish for the top, and that really caught my eye. A couple others were never rubbed out and you could see the brush marks or some texture left over from the spraying process.

My take is pretty much inline with radioactive's thoughts. A woodworker should be well versed in finishing even if they don't apply the actual finish to the piece. At the very least, they should be able to do repairs for the inevitable dings and dents.

Finishing is a skill no more, no less. People ooh and ahh over hand cut dovetails, after you have cut a 10+ lineal feet of dovetails it becomes pretty straight forward. When you have cut 100+ feet, I'd guess you probably have mastered the dovetail.


If your not setup to spray a finish with a flammable solvent safely, and the project calls for it. Sub contracting the finishing makes sense.

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